Chatsworth Road Market Emily Webber 2 November 2010 Clapton Chatsworth Road Market is back starting this weekend – some more info (and a great photo from 1895) here http://www.yeahhackney.com/2010/11/chatsworth-road-market/ 114 Comments ewebber 5 November 2010, 12:35 pm Is anyone going along this weekend? marty21 6 November 2010, 10:10 am I will pop along, what time does it kick off? ewebber 6 November 2010, 10:30 am 11am alexpink 6 November 2010, 10:43 am I’ll be there. Hopefully there will be something nice to eat for breakfast. janice 6 November 2010, 8:11 pm i’m still laid up with a bad leg. i do hope i can make the december ones. will chatsworth kitchen be open during the market hours? 7 November 2010, 7:57 am I’ll be going. The word is there’ll be a lot of food, but I haven’t heard anything more specific than that. Chats Kitchen will be open for business as usual. 7 November 2010, 12:24 pm Herm. Looks a bit like Broadway Market writ small. But then again, I’m not quite sure how you’d go about catering for longer-term locals. You could open a (non-organic) fruit & veg stall, for instance, but then you’d just risk putting MFR out of business. Dunno. I did notice a definite class divide on the east and west sides of the Chatsworth Road though, and that bothered me a bit. There seemed to be plenty of bemused onlookers not quite sure what was in it for them. janice 7 November 2010, 12:50 pm bway market writ small sounds pleasant though. if only bway had remained writ small. it’s now an overcrowded overpriced food court for the main part. spoiled my saturday mornings really. or am i alone in that thinking? i would love to think the stall holders were reading us so i could tell them to stay small, stay local, stay reasonably priced, don’t jump on the trendy bandwagon. we don’t need another market like all the rest. how to ensure this, i am not quite sure. please take photos and keep reporting for those of us who can’t be there. marty21 7 November 2010, 1:07 pm it was ok, a few criticisms though – they could do with blocking the traffic – they could divert the traffic for one block, the cars were annoying, and I’m sure the punters were annoying for the cars. There was a nice tea stall, which couldn’t sell tea as they couldn’t get any electricity sorted, so were only selling cakes – that needs to be sorted. Bought some nice cheese-cake though from the stall which seemed to only sell cheese-cake! The Deli, Creperie, Chatsworth Kitchen and Venetia’s were all doing great business, perfectly positioned for thirsty, hungry punters. Mrs21 bought some nice jam as well, so she was happy! There were loads of people when we were there at about 12, so it should be more than a trial. Definitely go there again, hopefully more stalls next time. 7 November 2010, 1:14 pm It seems to be the general consensus that Broadway Market is overpriced. But its customers have shown no resistance to that whatsoever, and after today I can see no reason why the same thing wouldn’t happen here. The crowd looked more or less the same to me. marty21 7 November 2010, 1:18 pm This is a lot more convenient for me , than Broadway market – a nice walk across the park. I didn’t notice what a lot of food places were charging , the cheese-cake was £2.50 a slice, which is probably what you would pay in M&S. If I’d managed to get a cup of Darjeeling tea – advertised at £1.20 on the board – that seems ok to me. ewebber 7 November 2010, 2:26 pm @will – I wouldn’t agree that it was the same crowd – Broadway market has become a place to be seen rather than just a market@marty21 – As these are the first trials, I would assume that blocking the road may come next. Agreed that it would help@janice – my photos to come shortly 7 November 2010, 2:31 pm Dunno. I saw plenty of jaunty hats and skinny jeans. Then there was that mockney knees-up around the piano. marty21 7 November 2010, 2:44 pm I liked the piano, it was a nice touch. Mrs21 was annoyed with the yummy mummies and their push chairs – blocking her by standing around with other yummy mummies chatting. ewebber 7 November 2010, 3:07 pm I have posted my photos here http://www.fuckyeahhackney.com/2010/11/chatsworth-road-markets-return-in-pictures/ ( @janice ) alexpink 7 November 2010, 3:15 pm The market was kind of what I expected, small but varied. Being the first one we can’t put too much judgment on it just yet, it needs time to develop.I wouldn’t liken it to Broadway Market personally. The crowd felt more Stoke Newington than Broadway, and anything that brings a sense of community to the area has to be a good thing.Of course no market is complete without a decent boozer on it. But I’m not sure how we can solve that one! marty21 7 November 2010, 3:23 pm The nearest pub is probably the Elderfield – I don’t think that opens in the afternoon though. A pub would be a good addition, sadly lacking on Chatsworth Road, I think there used to be a pub there, there’s an old pub building up the road, I think it’s a Chinese takeaway now. 7 November 2010, 3:29 pm Thang Long House? There’s lots of misinformation about, but I’ve variously heard it was being turned into a French restaurant, a gastropub and a block of luxury flats. I think the building was snapped up by Remy, of L’Epicerie fame. But don’t quote me on that. alexpink 7 November 2010, 3:36 pm I like the Elderfield. Yes the yellow one. It was a Chinese takeaway but I think its becoming a shop of some description (so @ewebber tells me). Theres another old pub just down the road – http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_foz/4702325313/ marty21 7 November 2010, 3:41 pm I’ve been past that pub loads, usually drive down there after picking up veg at the greengrocers, strange urban sculptures there now! 7 November 2010, 3:41 pm Ohh yes. Has the George been mentioned here? Unofficially opens its doors 2 or 3 nights a week. Really nice unpretentious atmosphere. And you can smoke indoors, if that’s your thing. marty21 7 November 2010, 3:43 pm it still opens? @will ? is it a squatted pub? what’s the story ? (I might be temped to smoke indoors!) do they serve beer? marty21 7 November 2010, 3:44 pm oh and @will, a French restaurant , I’d be tempted by that tbh, that Remy seems a canny business man. 7 November 2010, 3:52 pm They do serve beer, and don’t seem to care about making much money out of it – I got a round for 4 people for £9 or so. Whether they’re squatting or renting, I did glean that the landlord (who’s living abroad) was going to call time on the enterprise in December – a date which has since been pushed back. Somehow, he’d managed to get permission to turn the pub into a block of flats, so that’ll happen eventually. I went along on a Tuesday, when they had a jazz band playing. Well worth a visit, as of 3 weeks ago, completely hipster-free. alexpink 7 November 2010, 3:55 pm Sounds great. I’ll have to check it out before the inevitable happens. ewebber 7 November 2010, 3:56 pm it’s a few doors from where I used to live, I remember it was a bit rough then, I think someone was shot by the police outside or something – this is worth a forum post in the Hackney after Dark forum – @will @marty21 who wants to set it up?” 7 November 2010, 4:01 pm I’m your huckleberry. euan 7 November 2010, 9:46 pm @marty21 i designed a few different options for the layout of the market stalls for the CRTRA. I was trying to get that section of Glenarm Road closed and the market stalls with their back to the blank sidewall of Book Box, where the sun shines. The council didn’t agree with shutting down the road. I’m not sure why they set up the stalls on Glenarm Road where they did. Where i originally suggested (against Book Box) would have worked better in terms of pedestrian flows. and connected better to Book Box’s own market. In the long term i’m trying to convince them to put stalls along a whole block on both sides of the streets in the parking bays only. Like the ones opposite Venetia’s today, but who knows. bondzo 7 November 2010, 11:07 pm The market irritated me. It was just a smaller version of Broadway market. From what I saw the majority of stalls were selling either cakes or vintage miscellany which was unexciting.I’m all for keeping independent high streets independent and if a market will help keep it going then I support it all the way but I see little point in having a market like the one we had today when Broadway Market is just down the road. I can easily see it becoming just as overpriced judging from the people I saw there today.If we’re going to revive Chatsworth Road market it needs to be something that everyone in the area can benefit from rather than just the middle class families and trendy 20 somethings who have flocked to the area in recent years as they have decided its close enough to Hoxton and Dalston to deem it worthy.@Marty21 it seems ludicrous to me to close part of Chatsworth road for the market when it’s that size and only on one side of the road, especially when the roads around this area are a maze of one way traffic and dead ends.@alexpink I’d love to know what the difference is between a Broadway market crowd and a Stoke Newington crowd apart from perhaps Stoke Newington crowds are a few years older overall.The one stall I liked was the locally grown fruit and veg stall, more of that and more variety in stalls in order to make it accessible to all local residents and I’ll be there every Sunday. As it stood today, I was unimpressed and unconvinced.P.S Thang Long was a Vietnamese restaurant and a good one at that for the majority of the time it was there. Cheap, cheerful and tasty, so much more than just a Chinese takeaway. misty 8 November 2010, 6:14 am Just a Chinese Takeaway? Such comments show people at the market and chattering away on this forum about ‘community’ are freshies to the area. Nothing wrong with that, but over the past 3/5 years the area seems to have been taken over by a certain ‘type’, one that thinks it is cool to live in an ‘edgy’ area, the type that leave 4×4 buggies blocking entrances and pavements, the type that think their addition to the area improves it, the type that think they serve the community by complaining about the number of bookies, the type that would have moved before their kids get to secondary school but won’t now because there are such *marvelous* academies around, the type that wear unnecessary hats. These are the people who have created the market – great, but be clear about it – it is a market for them – not for the community. ewebber 8 November 2010, 7:16 am @misty i can assure you that there are a number of people speaking here who are not ‘freshies’ to the area, I’ve been in the area for a number of years, and enjoyed many a meal from Thang Long when I lived on Glyn Rd, I know @marty21 and @euan have also been in the area a long time as I’m sure others have. If someone made a misplaced comment about Thang Long, that doesn’t mean that they are not part of the community or that they are the stereotype trendy Hackney-ite you are talking about. The market was created by the local traders association, the community of people that work on the street, I know they were keen to hear feedback and I’ll point them to this forum. 8 November 2010, 7:27 am They carried out a public consultation, and one of the things that stuck in my head was that locals wanted somewhere to do their ‘weekly shop’ – I know it was just a trial run, but the market doesn’t seem to be developing along those lines at all. I’d be surprised if anybody at Roman Road or Whitechapel markets (people who might feasibly have a day free) were approached about bring a stall to the market, but it might have been a good idea. If there were a number of ‘regular’ stallholders to counterbalance the vendors of artisanal pies and vintage doo-dahs, it might also serve to keep prices low. yeahhackney 8 November 2010, 7:49 am I will invite Chatsworth Road market to respond yeahhackney 8 November 2010, 7:49 am I will invite Chatsworth Road market to respond marty21 8 November 2010, 8:29 am I have lived in the area since 1997, so I don’t think I am a ‘blow-in’ neither am I a ‘certain type’ we moved here because it was what we could afford in 1994, and we didn’t move that far, we lived in Evering Road for 3 years previously. My partner has lived in Hackney since the mid 80s, and I moved to Hackney in 1993.The number of bookies in Hackney as a whole is way too many, why the need? There isn’t a bank in Clapton, the last one to move out was a Nat West on Upper Clapton road which closed around about the time I moved here, to be replaced by a Bookie! For years the only way you could get cash was from cash-points in local shops which charged up to £2 to get your own money out. Recently the cash point in Upper Clapton post office addressed this. Well there was a non-charging cashpoint at the shell garage but that was regularly tampered with by scammers – I lost £200 one night there (was returned by the bank) so locals preferred not to use that one. I now know there is another cashpoint close to Chatsworth Road by the Post Office nearby.I’d hazard a guess that locals would prefer a bank to another bookie, but what do I know, I’ve only been here for 16 yearsIf part of Chatsworth Road was blocked off for a few hours on a Sunday, it is possible to re-route the traffic for a few hours, not all the streets around there are one-way! Clapton is becoming more popular amongst house-buyers, people used to sigh and shake their head when I said I lived there, convinced it was all ‘murder mile’. The area however does need to be improved, a KFC would gentrify Upper Clapton Road. I’ve never used the Chinese restaurant in the former pub, but I’d prefer it to be a pub, as I’m sure a lot of long-standing Chatsworth Road residents would. I would like a French Restaurant on the street if the rumours that Remy of the Deli is planning one are true, but I’d prefer a pub that locals could use.Developers are sniffing around Clapton, at the moment, the future of the Tram Sheds on Upper Clapton Road is in doubt, greedy developers want to redevelop it and oust the local businesses which currently use it. A developer also demolished the Synagogue on the roundabout (Illegally I think) it still hasn’t been built on.I’d prefer a lot more social housing to be built (I work in the sector) alexpink 8 November 2010, 9:33 am @bondzo Stoke Newington crowd are older, and dare I say it more family focused – which isn’t a bad thing. For the record I don’t have a problem with hipsters or anyone else for that matter.My point about Thang Long was that it used to be a pub, as pubs is what we were discussing. I have no doubt that it was a nice restaurant/take away but equally I am sure it was a nice pub also, at some point. Pubs are part of our history, I like pubs. @bondzo @misty Moaning on here, to people who do actually care about the area (regardless of their background) is not going to change the world. This site is meant to be a positive one, so why don’t you contact the market direct and make a difference?@misty If you look back at history Hackney hasn’t always been edgy as you say. It used to be a very affluent area. So if rich people move here now does that make them newbies?I am new to the area but so what. Your bio says that you don’t even like Hackney, so why are you on here moaning, Misty? bondzo 8 November 2010, 10:06 am I absolutely care about this area, how could I not? It’s my home, it’s where I grew up, went to school and where my friends and family are. It’s very important to me which is why I’m getting involved in discussions like this one, why I went to the market yesterday and why I went to some of the meetings about it in the first place (albeit not as many as I could have). The site tweeted asking if we had opinions on the market, it didn’t specify they had to be positive. I had an opinion, I shared it and also added to other thread of conversation that was going on. alexpink 8 November 2010, 10:23 am @bondzo You should contact the market and let them know your thoughts. They will welcome the feedback. 8 November 2010, 10:35 am I didn’t think bondzo was being unduly negative, as it goes. He/she was basically saying the market should be more inclusive, and I totally agree. ewebber 8 November 2010, 10:36 am Opinions of any type are good, debate is good, but actions are better.The best way to change something is to do something about it euan 8 November 2010, 10:41 am Best thread on this forum so far! @bondzo and @misty have very valid observations. Having spent the last seven years working on analysing and influencing urban change, they are right in that the market could end up being the trigger for an irreversible trend of increasing property prices and the homogenisation of the areas population. A similar process has happened in the area around broadway market and London Fields as everyone knows with interesting consequencesLink to videoThe reality is that places change in response to economic forces. Bookmakers would’n open if there wasn’t a demand for them markets wouldn’t sell overpriced goods if people didn’t buy them Tesco’s wouldn’t consider opening in an area where no one would use it. But leaving the future of an area subject to short term economic forces is a bad idea. But there is a way round it. The planning system can be instrumental in influencing urban change as can a well organised community with a clear set of values – unfortunately the Chatsworth Road area has neither. Because of this i also agree the market is a concern.” ewebber 8 November 2010, 10:43 am @will I’m interested in Chatworth Road Market’s response, I think it’s only fair that they get a chance to explain why this market was the way it is and from what I can tell they would welcome the feedbackI also think we need to remember that the market is good for all businesses on the street – and even if they don’t have a stall they are part of the market yeahhackney 8 November 2010, 10:50 am @euan – something odd has happened to your post above and half of it’s missing – I’ll try and work out what the issue is, but in the meantime can you try and post again? misty 8 November 2010, 10:57 am I doubt whether most people on this forum would like or even approve of the pub that was there before Thang Long. It included very bored strippers on a ‘stage’ in one corner. Still – it would make for an interesting new thread! janice 8 November 2010, 11:07 am Newbies or oldbies… it’s still 2010 and waddya know the date keeps changing. In my mind, the best neighbourhoods are those that maintain their character while adapting to the changing needs of the community. I vote for a good mix – one which incorporates what has always given the east end its special flavour while embracing the improvements! I too am loving this discussion and I have a distinct edge – I was born and grew up in the east end in the post-war period, always maintained my ties from a great distance, then came back eight years ago to renew my passion for London and especially this corner of it. I love my memories of The Roman, Brick Lane and Columbia Road (yes, not all Hackney but my east end) but also love to visit the trendier Up Market and Broadway Market. I say we can have both and why not in one market? And why not Chatsworth Road to show the way? alexpink 8 November 2010, 11:08 am Strippers – I knew it was a good pub 🙂 monkchips 8 November 2010, 11:17 am the market went through a very long consultation in order to get off the ground, including a survey that 800 people filled in. Its certainly true that a lot of folks were are remain concerned about potential gentrification – but the market died in the first place for a pretty simple reason- the rise of the supermarket. Jack Cohen may have started in Chatsworth Road – but Tesco on Morning Lane is the one that really pulls in the punters. I just don’t really see people doing a weekly shop on a market and to be fair the association was keen to NOT compete with Ridley Road. I would love to be proved wrong.we already have a fantastic greengrocers, awesome produce at awesome prices. Could we do with more retail outfits – absolutely. I like to shop local when I can.Also worth noting that after being unhelpful for the longest time, Hackney Council finally had no choice but to get involved- providing staff to run the stalls and so on. The stalls that were there are the ones that put themselves forward. Its called a market, right – a place where people try and sell stuff, and hopefully people buy it. Folks at Roman Road would surely have known the market is on. Its not as if the association went and targeted expensive stall holders.Regarding complaints about gentrification. Of course the issue is complex but I can’t see how a dying high street is an improvement. Shops converted into flats, shops shuttered, shops that can only last a few weeks before closing down. The market is an attempt to help continue to renaissance of the High Street. Come to Chats Palace and check out the photographic exhibition The Last Real High Street.Come to the yard and a half wide electrical shop and buy something from Keith.As I understand it the council had a significant say in how the market is laid out. Actually the local coffee shops and so on were of course nervous about competition – but the market was SO RAMMED yesterday it was a great day.Thanks @lordsugar for the pimpage.Couldn’t we at least congratulate @chatsworthroad first for making something good happen. It was a beautiful day, and the live music was tremendous. There was mixed use, there was food on the street – this was real Jane Jacobs stuff. Go ahead Will – Go ahead Bondzo. Make it inclusive. Run a stall selling low cost week essentials. Stay involved. The market needs good keen people like yourselves to make sure all demographics are catered to.My mate Nick was selling records, and he loved it. \Blimey – I actually sold a few”disclosure: i am not speaking for the residents and traders but i did get involved in meetings and stuff.” yeahhackney 8 November 2010, 11:31 am @euan – I fixed your previous post – looks like the vimeo vid was causing issues – odd 8 November 2010, 11:37 am Competition with Ridley Road? Wha? That’s miles away! Competition with Well Street market (when it was a market) wasn’t a problem was it? When I mentioned approaching Roman Road and Whitechapel traders, I freely admit it wasn’t an informed opinion. I know nothing about market planning, I haven’t been to any of the meetings, and as a relative newcomer to Homerton (if not to Hackney) I would have felt a bit presumptious in doing so. Hence my wittering on an anonymous forum. But indulge me, how would these people have been aware of Chatsworth Market exactly? Surely they don’t all subscribe to Lord Sugar’s twitter feed? monkchips 8 November 2010, 11:42 am Ridley Road is miles away? You really are hyper-local aren’t you ;-)Its been a long consultation. The association has done as much as a part-time, unpaid, group can in terms of PR etc. If a bunch of \outsiders” can find out about it – then so could folks from local markets. That said- I honestly don’t know about explicit outreach to them and i don’t want to speak out of turn. I don’t see this as an anonymous forum. If it was I probably wouldn’t bother. This is very nonymous being by and for locals.” 8 November 2010, 11:53 am Miles was probably a bit much. It’s a fair old walk though. hopsyturvy 8 November 2010, 12:00 pm I was doing the cake and (not) tea stall with my girlfriend. Would be interested to hear what people thought. (Maybe PM me if you really want to let loose!) I definitely take the point about people not wanting another broadway, and we tried to price accordingly – but I know it’s hard to make a profit if you’re making by hand and using top ingredients and the broadway prices often (but not always) reflect that, rather than just trendiness (I also work for someone else on Broadway). I agree with @monkchips that diversity in the market would be great – it just needs people to come forward and provide it! monkchips 8 November 2010, 12:09 pm Your tea and cake stall without the tea was fantastic. but it will be even better with tea… once they sort out some leccie. i was surprised my son chose your fruitcake, but I was glad he did. nom nom.I also really liked the nutters in tweed selling devilled kidneys. I am a veggie, but my wife certainly enjoyed the food…Cheap is hard. Cheap as chips often means cheap as shit. hopsyturvy 8 November 2010, 12:17 pm Thanks! Yeah, we were surprised, a lot of kids seemed to choose what we thought of as the more ‘adult’ cakes – it was their parents that snapped up the glittery butterfly buns. Arrangements have been made and we will have tea next time! yeahhackney 8 November 2010, 12:35 pm @hopsyturvy – is it your stall in these pics? http://www.yeahhackney.com/chatsworth-road-markets-return-in-pictures/ hopsyturvy 8 November 2010, 12:37 pm @fuckyeahhackney yes it is. Nice pics! I’m glad we don’t appear in the photos, neither of us looking our best after being up to 5am baking and frantically getting (more or less) ready alexpink 8 November 2010, 4:18 pm @euan Thats both an interesting and insightful documentary on the Battle of Broadway, personally I had no idea. I note that the cafe remains empty http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_foz/5157989991 euan 8 November 2010, 4:50 pm @alexpink it;s a pity it usually takes the realisation of a threat to get people to organise themselves, when a little bit of pre-empitve planning can give the community much more political power. marty21 8 November 2010, 7:40 pm I liked the tea stall, I asked you for a cup of Darjeeling, only to be cruelly denied! Hopefully you’ll have electricity next time! ewebber 9 November 2010, 7:42 am @euan I agree with @alexpink that video is ace – I might add it to http://www.fuckyeahhackney.com/groups/hackney-history/ chatsworthroad 9 November 2010, 6:18 pm Thanks FYH for providing a forum for this interesting and passionate discussion. The main criticisms of the first trial market seem to be that it has the potential to be a new Broadway Market. This is unpopular because Broadway is seen as large, expensive, crowded and not diverse enough to reflect the needs of the community it serves.We think it’s important to set these criticisms in some context and explain who’s behind the Chatsworth Road market, what we want and how we have set about achieving that goal.The Chatsworth Traders and Residents Association is a voluntary group of locals. Some of them are new to the area and some of them can trace their families back 100 years. They have all come together to represent the interests of its local traders and residents, preserve and improve the community local to the high street and support the creation of the market. As @monkchips has pointed out, we undertook a consultation of over 800 people of whom 96% supported a weekly weekend market. Of those, 35% expressed some concerns related to: parking and traffic; stalls competing with shops; a market being elitist and excluding sections of the community; a market bringing unwanted change; litter and noise and an increase in crime.Those in favour of the market said they wanted a variety of stalls; a market where they could do a weekly shop; affordable prices; fresh, organic and locally grown produce; an inclusive market that reflected the community’s diversity; a market that was different; a sense that the market was for ‘local people’. Whilst those remain our goals for the market, we are working within some constraints. The market is not run by us but by Hackney Council. We do not have the final decision on number or type of stalls, market layout, pricing, and the type of people who come to the market. Whilst we do have some influence and the Council listen to our recommendations, we are not a decision-making body.Hackney Council have their own criteria for selecting stalls. They should be local and that means they prioritize stallholders from Hackney above those from Roman Road, Whitechapel and other local markets. They are also keen that the market does not replicate Broadway or Ridley Road or any of the other main Hackney markets. They also give priority to new businesses setting up as market stalls above permanent businesses. The market must also complement rather than compete with existing traders on the street. And it cannot interfere with the flow of traffic.Another reason why the first pilot market may not fully reflect the goals of the CRTRA and Hackney Council is that we were working within a very short time frame between permission being granted and the opening date of the first market. Final selection was ultimately based on those who could get the necessary paperwork done in time.Let’s focus on some of the positives. The first trial market saw a huge increase in the footfall on Chatsworth Road. Local traders who opened report an increase in takings of between 30-70%. A local councillor declared it a \roaring success” and offered to help us in any future negotiations with the council. Over 180 people filled in a questionnaire letting us know how they would like the market develop and over 200 people asked to be added to the mailing list. If local people want it we’re close to having a permanent market but it’s not a done deal.Our role now is to influence the Council in order to steer the market towards what we in the local community want. Clearly there’s a need for more diverse stalls. We need to look at the layout and how it can be integrated into the existing traffic better. On this list there are a lot of people who are passionate about how the street develops. We’d love to hear your practical suggestions on how we can work within the current constraints but move closer to our goal of a small local inclusive and fairly-priced market.” yeahhackney 9 November 2010, 7:52 pm @chatsworthroad – thank you for taking the time to respond, it’s good to get an insight into the process from your side and I hope the people here will want to get involved and share suggestions with you alexisk 9 November 2010, 11:03 pm fwiw – I like the theme of people doing something – wherever they are from and however long they have been here. A contrast: a couple of years ago I found the tone and manner of the \reaction” to the new bookies really discomforting and personally unpleasant. And yes my kids go to the school nearly opposite and yes I was sad to see Blanks go and yes I can think of lots of more useful things in the street. But…guess I’m middle class by all the usual measures but I hated (and absolutely I was a minority I have to acknowledge) the tone of what SHOULDNT happen rather than what COULD happen. And that felt really hard to say at the time even though no-one would doubt that I care about my road and in my quiet way I’ve made my community contribution. So I really admire the market people although I probably wont shop there that much or regularly – what I saw on Sunday was people making something happen – the best bit about Sunday for me was going up to support my mate another local parent who had her first ever stall in the courtyard behind the Bookbox – probably not even part of the official market but a welcome offshoot. And while I was there I chatted to another stallholder about how our relatives were coping with the effects of Tropical Storm Tomas on St. Vincent. So I guess the diversity and spirit of Chastworth Road won’t necessarily die as easily as we might fear.” ewebber 14 November 2010, 11:47 am It’s great that @chatsworthroad have taken the time to post here, it would be great if the people that had opinions about the market could respond.In the meantime, here is a video from what some local traders thought about what the market could bring http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juBH8EspZ3M hopsyturvy 18 November 2010, 4:15 pm For anyone that enjoyed our cake and not tea stall, we’ve set up a facebook page here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-made-it-for-you/127694930622021. ‘Like’ us to be the first to find out what we’re bringing to the market next time. And we’d welcome your comments, photos, etc of course.(we promise not to abuse our users!) 24 November 2010, 1:20 pm @chatsworthroad – that set me straight on a lot of things, not least regarding Hackney Council’s criteria for stallholders. It’s fantastic news that the market brought so much extra custom to Chatsworth Road traders. I didn’t mean to come across as all negative about it, but I genuinely felt on the day that there was a section of the community feeling a bit bewildered and excluded by it. I’ve since talked to a number of locals and have found that most feel quite positively about it. I met one woman who lived here in the sixties, who was overjoyed that the area was finally getting a shot in the arm, (so to speak). Everyone wants to see their community thriving I guess, and perhaps it matters less who the market’s directly serving. ewebber 25 November 2010, 11:41 am Video from dokofilms documenting the first markethttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdSbrnteZAY” justin 25 November 2010, 12:42 pm I was just about to put the film up, but you beat me to to it, thanks ewebber. I hope you enjoyed it and that encourages even more people to come down for the next market day on December 5th. janice 5 December 2010, 10:32 am i’ll be there today around noon to 3. hope you will be too! ewebber 5 December 2010, 2:11 pm New forum about the market on 5th Dec here: http://www.yeahhackney.com/chatsworth-road-market-5th-dec/ marty21 5 December 2010, 8:53 pm I went down at about midday, bought some lovely cakes from the Bamber Brothers – they are actual brothers according to them.Also bought a mini pie – lamb and shepherd’s pie, which was pretty mini, but only £1.20 and very tasty – seemed less busy than the first one, but maybe it got busier later. philaldis 16 December 2010, 3:06 pm I think the markets have been an absolutely fantastic effort from all involved. They felt like far more than just a trial and you could see from how everyone was interacting with the market that there is easily the capacity for the market to grow and become permanent. I worry that there is an over-representation of the viewpoint that this market represents some kind of middle-class invasion of the area. Let’s look at the evidence: for all three markets, the market was absolutely packed with hundreds of people interacting with the stalls and making purchases of all manner of food/non-food items, all from local, creative individuals. Moreover, the nearby shops also saw a massive increase in business (e.g. Venetia’s selling over 4 times more coffees) showing that the market can be a complementary addition to Chatsworth road, helping to ensure the survival of all the many and wonderful independent shops we have. So from an economic perspective, the market has already proven to be a huge positive for the area and also for the stallholders and traders who, importantly, are members of our local community. I think some of the divisions on the market’s direction come from the difference in perspective as to whether the market should be servicing more functional shopping needs, or should be offering more interesting ‘luxury’ purchases. So, should the market offer more functional stalls to do one’s ‘weekly shop’ or should it be more about cakes / interesting food / clothes and so on? I tend towards the latter, and believe that the Chatsworth road shops should serve the former. In reality, there is probably some overlap: I don’t think that Chatsworth road is enriched by a weekly market with stalls selling cleaning products or knockoff phone accessories; however, I can see huge merit in a quality fishmonger and a specialist butcher, which could fall into the ‘weekly shop’ category. I think a brilliant outcome would be if some stalls that fall into the weekly shop category are so successful that they are able to set up as a permanent shop in one of the many empty premises on the street.Overall, I think there’s been way too much negativity in a lot of the commenting and we should first and foremost be praising the enterprise of all involved in bringing the market to fruition, and who are now working to take it onto the next level. Of course there are still aspects of the market’s operation to work out, but I firmly believe that they will resolve organically in a market-driven way: successful stalls will continue, unsuccessful stalls will stop operating. I don’t think we should be trying too hard to socially engineer the nature of the market, instead if local people have a product, service or idea that they want to offer through the market stall, then they can apply for a stall, run the stall and hopefully it will be a success.There are still plenty of empty and rundown premises on Chatsworth road; I firmly believe that the market can help drive the economic re-generation already taking place on Chatsworth road and we will see those empty premises occupied once again with new independent traders. In this economic climate, we should applaud and support this effort. I look forward to the meeting on Jan 19th and the next market! ewebber 6 January 2011, 6:54 am You have a chance to feedback in person about the market at general meeting of the Chatsworth Road Traders and Residents Association (CRTRA).Time: 7.30pmDate: Wednesday 19th JanuaryLocation: Chat’s Palace, Brooksby’s Walk, E5. ewebber 17 January 2011, 7:38 am The meeting details and Agenda are now here: http://www.yeahhackney.com/chatsworth-road-market-meeting-19th-jan-agenda simone 1 May 2011, 8:59 pm Is there some confusion when it’s happening? I noticed today that it was very much smaller than the previous times. The Facebook page hasn’t been updated for a while it seems. Also, the Rushmore School bit was not going on, and from leaflets it seems that it is scheduled to fall in between Market days…Would be a shame if it all fizzles out due to lack of coordination and advertising. ewebber 1 May 2011, 9:16 pm @simone it looked like they had a bit of a slow day today, likely due to the fact that there are a lot of people away at the moment. The Rushmore school bit was never really part of the market as far as I am aware, but having it on the weeks that the main market isn’t will mean that at least there is always something on, which may actually be a good thing in terms of continuity. hopsyturvy 1 May 2011, 9:48 pm I think May Day bank holiday is traditionally a slow weekend for market traders, but yes it was exceptionally quiet today. I don’t know about this week, but two weeks ago I saw a lot of flyers around the Broadway market area so the CRTRA are clearly still putting a lot of work in to organise and advertise. I wonder if some stallholders have been put off by the difficulties with the council licencing and payments? Hopefully this will settle down in time. We ended up packing up early after the stalls started blowing over in the wind this week too, which can’t have helped things. euan 2 May 2011, 9:10 am It did look quiet. It was expected for a bank holiday and some traders didn’t turn up. I think the novelty might be starting to wear off and it’s now that we’ll see how the market establishes itself for the long term. ewebber 2 May 2011, 4:24 pm The next market dates: “ simone 2 May 2011, 5:28 pm @hopsyturvy yeah the wind was quite dramatic – I was sitting in Venetia’s at the time and watched it all happen. Luckily nobody got hurt and hoping there wasn’t too much damage. @ewebber interesting, they are extending it by an hour. creamtea 3 May 2011, 1:57 pm Quite an interesting discussion this. I am in two minds about the market. It certainly brings life to the area on a Sunday. Things like this will always be the product of the certain group of people trying to implement change in the ways they know how and with the things they like. In the case of Chatsworth Road Market this type of person seems to be generally \middle class”. As a result this has led to the generic middle class obsessions with things such as cupcakes “vintage clothes” and vegan food. Obviously this attracts more of this type of person whilst as some one mentioned other locals look on with bemusement as they await the gentrification process to gather pace. I do not agree with the poster who said all businesses benefit from the market. The only businesses that benefit are the type of business that middle class types would frequent. One only has to experience the hideousness that is Broadway Market on a Saturday to see which places do well and which don’t really get much benefit at all. Percy Ingle for example seems to be a place trendy types are literally allergic to as there never seems to be any more people in there. Meanwhile places like Climpsons (trendiness personified) are rammed. I’ve noticed this happening on Chatsworth Road already. The new Creperie is packed and evidently with a certain type of person whilst the cheaper shops don’t really seem to attract much extra business. How the people organising this market can make it more inclusive I’m not sure (local council estate/local streets leaflet drop posters etc?) but the less people shouting about chai lattes the better!” monkchips 3 May 2011, 2:41 pm creamtea- its a market. the clue is in the name. the council, not the residents and traders association, runs it, and ANY kind of stallholder is welcome to apply for permission. if vegan peasant sees an opportunity well done to them for setting up on the market. you may not have noticed the local kebab shop selling food on the street now, or mighty meats doing barbeque. then there is the lad from lumiere- he is trying his damnedest to get his business off the ground, and the market days seem to be great for him. local traders were a key part of the consultation.the residents and traders association has done a great deal to try and involve the local community- with, as you say, posters, fliers and so on.who was shouting about a chai latte, exactly disclosure: i have gone to planning meetings GavinRedknap 3 May 2011, 3:59 pm Much as I sympathise with your suspicion of vintage-wearing, vegan chai latte drinkers, the fact of the matter is that the demographic of Clapton is changing toward the middle classes, and they are within their right to want to shop for the things that they like in their own area. It’s up to incumbent shop owners to spot that trend (hardly difficult, I’d say) and adjust their offer accordingly, or be priced out of the market that others that will. That’s capitalism, folks, and it even applies in Hackney, no matter how much you might personally dislike it. simone 3 May 2011, 4:38 pm I think there is a fine balance to be struck with the market between who frequents it and what is offered. I certainly do not want a market that is purely for people who are middle class. However, it is usually the middle class who have liquid cash and are able to spend it on more frivolous things…Clearly the area is also gentrifying and so the market will probably mirror that population change somewhat.So let me tell you some thoughts about the market from my perspective, from someone who moved into the area back in the days of the poll tax riots as a penniless renter (first clerical worker then student), then a penniless homeowner (I scraped together the mortgage by sub-letting), then a more prosperous – dare I say it – middle class person:– I use the shops on Chatsworth Road on a more or less daily basis. On market days I tend to nip in too but it’s nice that the market offers a mix of special things that either I don’t find in the shops or that I consider a treat. I have bought so far in the market: body lotion, nice sausages, cake, some pottery, bread. I have spent extra money on them, not replaced ordinary purchases that I would normally make on Chatsworth Road. I actually also bought some of them from the outlets of the permanent shops, not the stalls – I think the atmosphere that it creates is also important. So having people just walk around not buying anything is also ok– The deli, coffee shop and the creperie have a bit of an advantage in that they offer seating. I think if some of the other, cheaper places had that they may get more business. – I wonder if the market can be sustained by \locals” only. Part of the reason that other markets survive is that they draw in punters who don’t just live round the corner. It may be that people who live in Upper Clapton or Hackney Wick would be interested in joining in the fun too (and leave some money with local businesses). I think part of the problem with Broadway Market is that it really does not cater to near-locals or a-bit-further-away-locals anymore– Yes I am allergic to Percy Ingles too but that is because I think they do not offer food I am willing to pay money for. Never really did even when I was poor. As to the other cheaper options I do like the veg shop the various corner shops even the pound shops. They offer good value for money in my opinion not just rubbish– However I would like to see more variety of people both visiting the market and selling stuff. Considering that Hackney has a high percentage of immigrants I want to see them represented. Which possibly means more food stalls selling African/Polish/etc food ethnic produce and crafts and so on. Btw I hate chai latte but I do appreciate a nice cup of coffee (no instant!)” philaldis 3 May 2011, 4:46 pm @creamtea – The question is: what is the alternative? There are still a huge number of boarded-up and vacant shops on Chatsworth road. The market is clearly starting to bring a decent amount of economic re-generation to the area; 2 years ago, Chatsworth road was pretty dead on a Sunday and now even on a very quiet day for the market (surely just due to the holidays rather than people losing interest), Venetias, L’Epicerie, MFR, Creperie, HOP were all very busy doing business. That is surely preferable to empty shops and/or shops that do zero business on a Sunday.I agree with your idea that maybe more leaflet drops could help publicise the market beyond some of the current attendees, but any existing user of Chatsworth road’s shops would surely be aware that the market is happening; but maybe not, and a leaflet drop would help increase publicity. However, this is not going to solve your core overly-middle-class objections. philaldis 3 May 2011, 4:52 pm @simone – I pretty much agree with all of your summary. Well put.I think monkchips mentioned it earlier, but it has been good on a couple of the last markets to see some of the other shops getting in on the action. There are dosas being made outside one shop to the South of the market, some guys had something going on (can’t remember exactly what) outside the laundrette’s and Might Meats were doing a BBQ. Last week, we actually only bought something from the BBQ outside Venetias rather than any of the stalls. I think the more the shops of Chatsworth road come up with ideas like those mentioned, the more the market can feel like it’s for all. GavinRedknap 3 May 2011, 5:09 pm Given its relative inaccessibility (compared to Broadway market for example) I think its going to be hard for Chatsworth market to appeal to a wider audience unless it fairly quickly develops a niche in terms of what the stalls are selling. If it remains largely local, it’s main purpose might in the end be to accelerate the gentrification of the shops on the road, in that it provides evidence of latent demand in the area to the purveyors of ‘middle class’ goods. creamtea 3 May 2011, 5:16 pm Monkchips, I don’t demand strangers names in the street and/or in coffee shops. Also my suggestion of leaflet dropping etc was only done as I didn’t want to be seen to be moaning about the negatives without offering possible solutions, hence the question mark, to see if someone could shed more light for me on whether these things had been done, and to what extent. I am also a great fan of Lumieres. The guy is great! I am not adverse to \trendy” stalls at all but was just opining that maybe more of a mix of stalls would be good. Hopefully this will happen as the market hopefully expands. I guess what I was really getting at was that we don’t really need another Broadway Market (Saturday) do we? Anyway hope I haven’t offended anyone as that wasn’t my intention I was just offering my thoughts.” simone 3 May 2011, 7:24 pm @creamtea on my part I didn’t take your post as offensive, just voicing some of the concerns that I share. I think reaching a bit beyond the middle class audience is something that the market needs to address, which means involvement by all parts of the community. I think that was also a concern of the CRTA. @GavinRedknap any ideas what niche that may be? I think it may also be good to remind local charities and organisations that it may be a good idea to apply for a stall, or do a bit more outside their own shop. GavinRedknap 3 May 2011, 7:55 pm It’s a tough one, must admit. Got to think about what this side of London could do with. Brick lane has fashion, Colombia road flowers, Ridley road is…well just mental. Perhaps one thing would be antiques/ household goods that at the moment you have to go over to Portobello to find. With so many people in the area looking to renovate Victorian properties and include original features in that, there might be strong demand for that. One thing that i can see being a bit of a problem is the fact that registering as a trader on Chatsworth seems to be a fairly complex process including the requirement for public liabilities insurance. You dont need that for stalls on Brick Lane, or Portobello market, as far as i know. ewebber 3 May 2011, 8:44 pm In general I have some mixed feelings about the market, but I’ll add my thoughts. I know @chatsworthroad are keen for the market to be inclusive, but like a lot of community groups, they are doing it in their spare time, I’m sure they would appreciate people getting the word around – you can even download and print out the poster from their website (download PDF).I also know that unlike Broadway market Chatsworth Road has a lot of local people trying to make a living which includes @veganpeasant who make great vegan food and @hopsyturvy who make great cakes. I doubt these people would get a look in on Broadway.As I understand it the application process is down to Hackney Council (correct me if I’m wrong) who have a fair few hoops to jump rather that CRTRA themselves; this of course isn’t the same for Brick Lane and Portabello Rd who fall outside the borough.” GavinRedknap 3 May 2011, 9:22 pm But why is it relatively easy to set up stall in brick Lane or Portobello? I hardly think Kensington and Chelsea are going to be lax with regard to their rules. i’m guessing that in both instances the ‘market’ acts as the principal with the council, and sort out things like the insurance, and then individual sellers then rent space from them? If youre trying to encourage local or niche business then it would be good to overcome that. Even Hackney Wick flea market operate on a basis of turn up and go, rather than this council malarkey. ewebber 3 May 2011, 9:45 pm Hackney Wick flea market is on private land rather than a public street, I’m sure that makes a difference.Similarly Broadway Market, also in Hackney requires the traders to have insurance according to their website, so maybe the council don’t allow what you are suggesting, but I’m just speculating, CRTRA are the people to answer that. benjamin 4 May 2011, 6:49 am I’ve got to agree with @gavinredknap on this. I was contemplating setting up a stall on the market selling antique furniture but the requirement for public liability insurance was too much of a turn-off. If people want the range on offer to be as broad as possible, it should be made easier to set up stall. euan 4 May 2011, 8:29 am This is a great discussion and i’ll relay all the points on to the CRTRA. I think in general we are aware and agree with most of the concerns outlined. The challenge is to find ways of overcoming them.The CRTRA have very little say on who trades at the market. Our influence was limited to being consulted by the council when they developed their list of allowed commodities that can be sold at the market. We tried to make sure that these were as diverse as possible and that they did not compete with what was being sold in the shops.http://www.chatsworthroade5.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Chatsworth-Road-Market-stall-commodity-list-at-01Apr11.pdfHowever, the final make up of the stall holders is down to traders that have wanted to trade. So the commodities being sold are a response to what traders think they can sell. (Many people wanting to sell cup-cakes have been turned down in the name of diversity!)At the minute we still have a number of vacant pitches because of the lack of traders that want to sell the specific goods.In response to this lack of diversity of traders we are considering actively going to other markets (ie: Ridley Road) and inviting them to Chatsworth Road. We have even talked about the possibility of subsidising some stalls.The last two markets were particularly slow. One of the reasons for this is that we have not filled all our pitches. Does it seem wrong that we have empty pitches and are turning away traders because they are not selling the right types of commodities? Any ideas of what to do?All the ‘red tape’, relates to trading on a public highway. Many of the regulations don’t apply to trading on private land (ie:shopfronts)Disclaimer: I am not in the CRTRA Market Sub-Committee so my facts might not be 100% correct. GavinRedknap 4 May 2011, 9:08 am Well sorry to press the point, but i think that having to arrange insurance is going to put a hell of a lot of people off. Is there no way that CRTRA can pre-arrange insurance and include that in the price of the pitch? Also, the restrictions on trade seem a bit odd. It says no flower stalls and no antique stalls, but I’m sure I saw both last time I was there. And the limit on stalls selling each type of good is problematic too, in that it doesn’t allow for the market to develop as a niche, which i think would probably be important for its long term viability (I think Columbia road is an interesting model in this respect, as is – though in terms of scale its a different league entirely – Saint Ouen antique and flea market on the outskirts of Paris). hopsyturvy 4 May 2011, 9:17 am From our experience setting up, arranging insurance was not the hardest part. We did it online in about ten minutes, and it cost us around 140 – as a food stall and therefore presumably higher risk than antiques. I imagine group insurance is problematic, especially with temporary traders. GavinRedknap 4 May 2011, 9:22 am Understood, but food will be qualitatively different from other goods. Whether it’s on a public highway or no, I imagine all traders will need to be covered. Here’s an example of group insurance for car boot sales that I found after a very quick search: http://www.graham-sykes.co.uk/carboot_insurance.html If you do have the funds available, I think sorting that issue will be more productive than subsidising stalls. monkchips 4 May 2011, 9:45 am @benjamin you can just turn up and pitch at the market in the school – pay ten pounds and away you go. that said, for the life of me understand the decision to have the school and street market on alternative weeks now. that’s just bonkers. The two together makes for critical mass @gavinredknap my suggestion is that you volunteer to try and fix the insurance issue, given its an issue you feel strongly about. as i understand it that was not an option with the council. i agree it certainly has put some potential traders off. in terms of the license to trade, which i am sure @hopsyturvy will agree *is* a real PITA. That said, my neighbour nick likes the fact he now has a license to sell records at *any* of the hackney markets (which have the same restrictions). GavinRedknap 4 May 2011, 10:05 am Well if it aint an option as far as the council are concerned, then there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Which is a real shame as its an obvious disadvantage for start-up markets that are trying to compete with those already established. euan 4 May 2011, 11:04 am I’m not sure if they have looked into group insurance – i’ll ask. @monkchips are the school really having their market on alternative weeks? Regarding that commodities list – that is additional to what is there at the moment. I personally agree @GavinRedknap about the restrictions on commodities. But without them we would have a lot of cupcake stalls! The restrictions come from the council, but there are two sides to the argument; let market forces decide what ends up being sold, making it likely to develop into a niche market; or control the market to begin with and diversify as much as possible. benjamin 4 May 2011, 11:16 am I think the council and CRTRA need to address this urgently as currently the market is being stifled from both perspectives; on the one hand diversity is being limited by making it difficult/costly to set up stall, and on the other hand restrictions on commodities are resulting in potential traders being turned away. If scrapping the restrictions on commodities means a lot of cupcake stalls, then so be it – they won’t all survive and other commodities will soon take over. Let market forces decide what gets sold, but make it easier for traders to set up in the first place. monkchips 4 May 2011, 11:27 am @benjamin your analysis seems correct. but just to reiterate – the council and CRTRA do not have an easy working relationship. in fact the council didn’t want the market back in the first place. so whether or not an issue is seen as urgent by the CRTRA, the council is the decision-making body. GavinRedknap 4 May 2011, 11:32 am trust the council to put a spanner in the works. FlashMob Markets, that’s the way to go… GavinRedknap 4 May 2011, 11:40 am trust the council to put a spanner in the works. Flashmob Markets, that’s the way to go. But to return to that earlier point about diversity versus speciality markets, i guess it depends on what the ultimate aim of the market is. If it is mainly aimed at local people, go for diversity, whereas if you want to grow it for a wider audience and try to guarantee longevity, aim for the speciality. Just not a cupcake speciality. philaldis 4 May 2011, 12:00 pm I thought that the poster I saw on the school gates this weekend said that from next week, the Rushmore School market was every week; that would make more sense. Can’t find out anything on the internet though. simone 4 May 2011, 7:18 pm @philaldis yes, I got a flyer through the door, and also a contact for getting a stall printed on it 🙂 Btw, one thing that is sort of skirted around is that the shopfront seem to be exempt from the council market stuff. May be worth checking into if you are desperate for a pitch and can come to some agreement with the shop owner 😉 ewebber 5 May 2011, 4:45 am @simone it is an interesting point as far as I remember the shops on Chatworth Road own the land in front of their shops, which means they can do what they want in front of them. euan 5 May 2011, 7:46 am The CRTRA have looked into the shopfront trading possibility. Apparently there are a number of restrictions with traders only being allowed to sell what is being sold in the shop and only being able to take money inside the shop itself. I’m not sure how they’ll be able to enforce this in the long term, so it might be worth speaking to some shopkeepers. simone 8 May 2011, 3:23 pm @euan Unless they now sell bric-a-brac and home-made jam in the laundrette I think it’s being already successfully circumvented 😉 staystylish 10 May 2011, 1:46 pm I’ve just started a topic in the Hackney General Chat about Market Trading advise and also been catching up on this thread. I think there are lots of good points here. The lengthy and sorta complicated process and all the certificates/licenses turn off the new market traders and results same repeating traders in other markets (which is a bit like seeing the same repeating high street shops along the Oxford Street)!” ewebber 14 May 2011, 4:37 am Just thought I’d flag that the Rushmore market is on every week according to their website, more on that over here: http://www.yeahhackney.com/rushmore-primary-school-market/ ewebber 6 June 2011, 7:41 pm Chatsworth Road Market is now weekly! ewebber 21 July 2011, 3:33 pm This from the CRTRA facebook page: With immediate effect Chatsworth Road market is open to all those who wish to trade and are licenced by the council. Changes mean that if you have found it difficult to get licenced in the past you should reapply to the Council. If you’re not sure what to do next visit our website or contact us at firstname.lastname@example.org.“ Comments are now closed for this post.